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	<title>Comments for burning for change, rooted in earth: phoenix and tree</title>
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	<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com</link>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by Propagandhi</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2715</link>
		<dc:creator>Propagandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2715</guid>
		<description>I swear I did my best to ensure that
His final moments were swift and free from fear
But consideration should be made for the fact
That Sandor Katz was my first kill
So I trust the reader will

Understand that while the screams may wear the seam
Like conscious objections they were in reality
Simply a request to honor his strength and speed
With gratitude and tenderness I seared
Every single hair from his body
Gently placed his decapitated head in a stock pot
Boiled off his flesh and made a spreadable head cheese

Because I believe that one can only relate with
Another living creature by completely destroying it
I&#039;m sure Sandor&#039;s friends and family would appreciate this
A rationale so moronic it defies belief
Post-vegetarian I must submit to you respectfully
Be careful what kind of world you wish for
Someday it may come knocking on your door</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I swear I did my best to ensure that<br />
His final moments were swift and free from fear<br />
But consideration should be made for the fact<br />
That Sandor Katz was my first kill<br />
So I trust the reader will</p>
<p>Understand that while the screams may wear the seam<br />
Like conscious objections they were in reality<br />
Simply a request to honor his strength and speed<br />
With gratitude and tenderness I seared<br />
Every single hair from his body<br />
Gently placed his decapitated head in a stock pot<br />
Boiled off his flesh and made a spreadable head cheese</p>
<p>Because I believe that one can only relate with<br />
Another living creature by completely destroying it<br />
I&#8217;m sure Sandor&#8217;s friends and family would appreciate this<br />
A rationale so moronic it defies belief<br />
Post-vegetarian I must submit to you respectfully<br />
Be careful what kind of world you wish for<br />
Someday it may come knocking on your door</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by Alex</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2711</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 02:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2711</guid>
		<description>&quot;I thanked the spirit of the fish for giving its life that I might live, and instantly felt a sense of peace and rightness.&quot;

wow, that part made me laugh. this is satire right? you became a vegetarian because of roadkill? no wonder you gave it up. and don&#039;t get me wrong, i&#039;m not saying you are a bad person for eating meat. you can do whatever you want. but don&#039;t try to justify your actions by asking the spirit of whatever you are eating to bless you. that doesnt mean anything. its just posturing. eat meat because you want to. dont eat meat because you dont want to. thats really the only thing that will matter in the end</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I thanked the spirit of the fish for giving its life that I might live, and instantly felt a sense of peace and rightness.&#8221;</p>
<p>wow, that part made me laugh. this is satire right? you became a vegetarian because of roadkill? no wonder you gave it up. and don&#8217;t get me wrong, i&#8217;m not saying you are a bad person for eating meat. you can do whatever you want. but don&#8217;t try to justify your actions by asking the spirit of whatever you are eating to bless you. that doesnt mean anything. its just posturing. eat meat because you want to. dont eat meat because you dont want to. thats really the only thing that will matter in the end</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by laurio</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2705</link>
		<dc:creator>laurio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2705</guid>
		<description>Hi Phoenixandtree, great writing and great reflection.   Being a post-vegetarian, I will admit that my decisions for becoming vegetarian were, among many others, guided by the basic human need to have &quot;community&quot;.  Vegetarianism was a way to make friends, explore my moral feelings, and rely on an approved standard to live by.  Before I became a farmer, it gave me something to DO, to care about.  These are the same reasons people join clubs, churches, and even political parties.  At that time, I felt very strongly about my moral beliefs as a vegetarian (and later vegan).  I didn&#039;t even miss eating meat.  Now, having worked on small, humane, organic, family-operated farms, I now feel completely dedicated to keeping food clean, organic, and available to everyone.  As a vegan, it would be very difficult to get all the things needed in a healthy diet available locally AND sustainably.  It would be great if you could make your own taurine or B12 or textured veggie protein, but we can&#039;t.  Either way, we can all come to be conscious of our impact on others.  Maybe the definition pf post-vegetarian (and this is still being explored) is being omnivorous with vegetarian ideals, and agreeing to disagree. 
Also, go to Sandor Katz&#039;s fermentation talks!   Sauerkraut is one thing we can all agree on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Phoenixandtree, great writing and great reflection.   Being a post-vegetarian, I will admit that my decisions for becoming vegetarian were, among many others, guided by the basic human need to have &#8220;community&#8221;.  Vegetarianism was a way to make friends, explore my moral feelings, and rely on an approved standard to live by.  Before I became a farmer, it gave me something to DO, to care about.  These are the same reasons people join clubs, churches, and even political parties.  At that time, I felt very strongly about my moral beliefs as a vegetarian (and later vegan).  I didn&#8217;t even miss eating meat.  Now, having worked on small, humane, organic, family-operated farms, I now feel completely dedicated to keeping food clean, organic, and available to everyone.  As a vegan, it would be very difficult to get all the things needed in a healthy diet available locally AND sustainably.  It would be great if you could make your own taurine or B12 or textured veggie protein, but we can&#8217;t.  Either way, we can all come to be conscious of our impact on others.  Maybe the definition pf post-vegetarian (and this is still being explored) is being omnivorous with vegetarian ideals, and agreeing to disagree.<br />
Also, go to Sandor Katz&#8217;s fermentation talks!   Sauerkraut is one thing we can all agree on!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Comment Policy by Mark24</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/comment-policy/#comment-2693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark24</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/?page_id=210#comment-2693</guid>
		<description>However, we cannot afford to be complacent. ,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However, we cannot afford to be complacent. ,</p>
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		<title>Comment on Comment Policy by Arnold53</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/comment-policy/#comment-2689</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnold53</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/?page_id=210#comment-2689</guid>
		<description>Originally, there were two versions of the show. ,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Originally, there were two versions of the show. ,</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by sam</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2675</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2675</guid>
		<description>Man, what a long winded sorry excuse for an excuse. The idea of &quot;post vegetarianism&quot; is absolutely absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, what a long winded sorry excuse for an excuse. The idea of &#8220;post vegetarianism&#8221; is absolutely absurd.</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by Ben</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2598</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 12:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2598</guid>
		<description>I think the notion of nature in this discussion is a bit constrictive. The forces by which a fish is served on a plate point to the capacity of humans, and indeed any living thing, to adapt and continually re-define its nature. I think it is a real shame to invoke nature as a deterministic force to which we must conform.

I am also interested that contributors in this thread (especially those engaged with post-vegetarian ideas) seem concerned with providing respectful and sensitive critique to others. In a post-vegetarian world it would seem that disrespectful rebuff is a relative privilege given that your flesh is up for the taking by anyone who demands it for their survival, however tenuous their claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the notion of nature in this discussion is a bit constrictive. The forces by which a fish is served on a plate point to the capacity of humans, and indeed any living thing, to adapt and continually re-define its nature. I think it is a real shame to invoke nature as a deterministic force to which we must conform.</p>
<p>I am also interested that contributors in this thread (especially those engaged with post-vegetarian ideas) seem concerned with providing respectful and sensitive critique to others. In a post-vegetarian world it would seem that disrespectful rebuff is a relative privilege given that your flesh is up for the taking by anyone who demands it for their survival, however tenuous their claim.</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by Michael</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2521</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2521</guid>
		<description>i think &quot;nature&quot; is a dubious concept. to say this is &#039;natural&#039; but this is &#039;artificial&#039; is silly given that human beings are as much a part of nature as any other species. i think we agree here. but i also think to say that everything is natural is to say that nothing is natural. so, from my point of view, the word &#039;natural&#039; is meaningless.

people forget that it was not charles darwin but benjamin spencer who coined the notion of &#039;survival of the fittest.&#039; people latched onto this idea to justify any number of atrocities: the genocide of native americans (don&#039;t other animals conquer?), the extermination of jews (an inferior race), eugenics (just natural selection, right?). it seems you are justifying meat eating according to this logic.

i am not saying you are a bad person. judging from your post, you seem like a compassionate, thoughtful person. but i do think you argument reads like a rationalization. the difference between humans and other animals is that humans are capable of making ethical decisions based on the information they have. it is our &quot;nature&quot; to make ethical decisions.

placing yourself is some pseud-mystical &quot;circle of life&quot; is a cop-out in my view. the honest thing would be to say: i eat meat because i want to and despite the knowledge that eating meat will contribute to the grand sum of unecessary suffering on this planet. to place yourself on the level of a wolf who needs to hunt and eat meat to survive is refusing to take responsibility for your choices.

i say this respectfully. and, of course, i could be wrong. that too is part of what it means to be human.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think &#8220;nature&#8221; is a dubious concept. to say this is &#8216;natural&#8217; but this is &#8216;artificial&#8217; is silly given that human beings are as much a part of nature as any other species. i think we agree here. but i also think to say that everything is natural is to say that nothing is natural. so, from my point of view, the word &#8216;natural&#8217; is meaningless.</p>
<p>people forget that it was not charles darwin but benjamin spencer who coined the notion of &#8217;survival of the fittest.&#8217; people latched onto this idea to justify any number of atrocities: the genocide of native americans (don&#8217;t other animals conquer?), the extermination of jews (an inferior race), eugenics (just natural selection, right?). it seems you are justifying meat eating according to this logic.</p>
<p>i am not saying you are a bad person. judging from your post, you seem like a compassionate, thoughtful person. but i do think you argument reads like a rationalization. the difference between humans and other animals is that humans are capable of making ethical decisions based on the information they have. it is our &#8220;nature&#8221; to make ethical decisions.</p>
<p>placing yourself is some pseud-mystical &#8220;circle of life&#8221; is a cop-out in my view. the honest thing would be to say: i eat meat because i want to and despite the knowledge that eating meat will contribute to the grand sum of unecessary suffering on this planet. to place yourself on the level of a wolf who needs to hunt and eat meat to survive is refusing to take responsibility for your choices.</p>
<p>i say this respectfully. and, of course, i could be wrong. that too is part of what it means to be human.</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by Casey</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2519</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2519</guid>
		<description>I think there is too much thought given to this subject here.  The Fish, nor the vegetable, gives a crap what kind of respect we are paying it after it dies; its dead.  Hey Rocco, Propagandhi is one of my favorite bands.  However, just because Chris says something doesn&#039;t make it gospel.  I disagree with those guys on a lot of things, including Veganism.  I respect the basic principles behind Veganism, but I think it is hypocritical for people to say that they live cruelty free lives.  Chris&#039; song about Sandor Katz somehow doesn&#039;t strike me as being free of cruelty.

A point about wildlife management:  The animals do not regulate themselves or their populations.  So I ask a vegan, What is more cruel?  To selectively take older species from the populations thereby assuring their continued existance or to completely leave the species alone until said species depletes the natural resources of their habitat and are wiped-out due to starvation?

I think an interesting case could be made that humans don&#039;t regulate themselves either.  (Pretty sad considering that we are supposed to be &quot;intelligent&quot;) However, murdering humans is illegal.  Save for when our idiotic governments find &quot;cause&quot; to make war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is too much thought given to this subject here.  The Fish, nor the vegetable, gives a crap what kind of respect we are paying it after it dies; its dead.  Hey Rocco, Propagandhi is one of my favorite bands.  However, just because Chris says something doesn&#8217;t make it gospel.  I disagree with those guys on a lot of things, including Veganism.  I respect the basic principles behind Veganism, but I think it is hypocritical for people to say that they live cruelty free lives.  Chris&#8217; song about Sandor Katz somehow doesn&#8217;t strike me as being free of cruelty.</p>
<p>A point about wildlife management:  The animals do not regulate themselves or their populations.  So I ask a vegan, What is more cruel?  To selectively take older species from the populations thereby assuring their continued existance or to completely leave the species alone until said species depletes the natural resources of their habitat and are wiped-out due to starvation?</p>
<p>I think an interesting case could be made that humans don&#8217;t regulate themselves either.  (Pretty sad considering that we are supposed to be &#8220;intelligent&#8221;) However, murdering humans is illegal.  Save for when our idiotic governments find &#8220;cause&#8221; to make war.</p>
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		<title>Comment on on becoming &#8220;post-vegetarian&#8221; by BertDert</title>
		<link>http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2497</link>
		<dc:creator>BertDert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixandtree.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/on-becoming-post-vegetarian/#comment-2497</guid>
		<description>If you were caught by a bear in the woods this &quot;circle of life&quot; justification would go right out the window. Maybe I&#039;m wrong. Maybe as you were being torn apart you would praise mother nature and offer up your spirit to the bear. I doubt it though. This is an excuse to give in to selfish wants. 

And Billy, wow, let&#039;s just put &quot;GOD&quot;, &quot;lettus&quot; and your &quot;canines&quot; (let&#039;s see you use those things like a wolf uses theirs) aside and discuss your little world where humans are treated so well, because that&#039;s not the earth I live on. Maybe your attitude towards animals reflects your own species inability to act &quot;humanely&quot; towards itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you were caught by a bear in the woods this &#8220;circle of life&#8221; justification would go right out the window. Maybe I&#8217;m wrong. Maybe as you were being torn apart you would praise mother nature and offer up your spirit to the bear. I doubt it though. This is an excuse to give in to selfish wants. </p>
<p>And Billy, wow, let&#8217;s just put &#8220;GOD&#8221;, &#8220;lettus&#8221; and your &#8220;canines&#8221; (let&#8217;s see you use those things like a wolf uses theirs) aside and discuss your little world where humans are treated so well, because that&#8217;s not the earth I live on. Maybe your attitude towards animals reflects your own species inability to act &#8220;humanely&#8221; towards itself.</p>
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